>> but just this weekend, president obama made it seem that the public option was, in fact, optional. >> whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of health care reform. this is just one sliver of it. one aspect of it. >> that's not how he's always described the public plan. take a listen to what the president has said in the past. >> any plan i sign must include an insurance exchange. a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, costs, and track records of a variety of plans. including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest. >> we do think it makes sense to have a public option alongside the private options. >> among the choices available will be a public health insurance option that would make health care more affordable by increasing competition, providing more choices and keeping insurance companies

honest. >> so what does the public want? well, according to a brand new nbc news poll, 43% favor a public health care option, 47% oppose it. and 10% aren't sure. >> monica, now the bigger picture, will there be a democratic civil war over the president's health care plan? a group of 60 house democrats say they will not vote in favor of the bill unless it has a public option. here's what they wrote to kathleen sebelius. quote to take the option off the table would be a grave error. a nationally syndicated talk show host and pat buchanan is an msnbc political analyst. pat, let's decide whether we want the public option or not. the white house, says the president a month ago any plan i sign must include an exchange including the public option. and now you hear robert gibbs saying the president prefers a public option. there's a significant difference between preferring something and

something must include it, right? >> sure there is. and what the president, i think and gibbs and sebelius have said they've come to the conclusion in the white house we can't get the public option through the united states senate. kent conrad is right, the senate committee won't bring it out. it's either we give that up or we lose the whole package and we've got to make that optional now because we don't want to lose the whole package. frankly, i understand why the president did what he did. and why he has to do it or he feels he does because of the conclusion he reached. but you're dead right, david, there is a difference between saying it must be there and i would certainly like it. >> now, bill, as far as saying they would certainly like it that they would prefer the public option. by saying that they would prefer the public option, even if it's not a do or die, is that enough to hold democrats in place, to keep democrats in support of whatever comes out of congress? >> david, it is not -- i want to take a brief moment to join pat, by the way, in saying just a

sincere word about the loss of our good buddy bob novak today. pat and i worked with him for years at crossfire. he was a great journalist, a great commentator, and a great friend and a sad loss to this country. but david, i just walked out of that briefing. this situation is still really murky. for the white house to say this is what we prefer is not the same as saying this is what we want and this is what we're going to get. i think and pat's worked in the white house, i never have. i think the white house in this case caved in, it looks like they caved in a little too early. they've raised the white flag before the first shots are even fired. i can tell you this from my conversation with house democrats that if there's not a public plan option, health care reform will not pass the house of representatives. forget about the senate, it won't get out of the house. >> pat, is the white house betting here if they have back down from this, in fact, are they betting that democrats still won't walk away from this reform? >> i think in the final

analysis, yes. but what bill says may be true. that maybe you have the public option in the house bill. what the president, i think, is saying indirectly is we don't think it can make it through the senate. and if it can't make it through the senate, we're going to give up everything for the public option. so i don't know that there's any disagreement there. i would disagree to bill to this extent. i don't doubt he's correct about the sentiment of the liberals in the house now. but my view is if they send a bill over that has the option and it's dropped out somehow in conference,ky not see 100 or 60 liberal democrats giving up a lot of good things they've been fighting for for years for the simple reason they didn't get it all. i don't believe they will do that. >> but you know, you also have to look at the senate, i think. and remember, we're all fixated now on the senate finance committees. the senate health committee has already passed a strong bill like the house bill with that public plan option in it. so, pat, what i think's going to

happen is whatever the senate finance committee comes up with, they'll come up with. it's not going to have a public plan. and if obama puts the screws to 50 democrats in the senate, i think he can get that public plan option and ought to continue to fight for it and that's what most democrats want. >> well, i think if he did -- that is an option, going for the 50 democrats, but i'll tell you if you do that, you are decla declaring war on the blue dogs in the house and in the senate, you're going to tear your party apart and a real possibility you get nothing. that's what, that's so -- it's coming down to that. but i think obama is deciding, obviously, by this signal that, look, i don't want nothing. i want something i can call health care, and i know a number of features have majorities in both houses, overwhelmingly, and if necessary, i will get that and if i have to give up the public option, i'll give it up. >> but you've got howard dean out there saying i'll take nothing, pull it off the table.

if it doesn't have the public option, pull it off the table, we'll try again next year. >> howard dean doesn't have a vote, monica. but i've talked to about five members of the house, democrats in the last couple of days who do have votes they've said the same thing. there has to be the whole package, this is the time -- we've waited long enough. i really do think there's a real reality that house progressives, liberals, whatever you want to call them will vote for no health care reform instead of health care reform with no public option because it leaves the insurance companies in charge, doesn't provide choice, doesn't provide competition. >> and, in fact, those public grass roots organizations are saying the public option is the compromise. >> yes, in fact, right. most of these people, myself included, would prefer a single-payer plan. they've already compromised from single-payer down to a public plan option. you get rid of the public plan option and you might as well turn it over to the insurance companies. >> but i think -- you better, look, you've got these blue dogs down there and they're not calling these town hall meeting

folks who are coming out in the thousands, they're not calling them fascist or un-americans or racists or birthers or anything else. they're dealing with them respectfully as is claire mccatskill because these are the swing voters that you folks took away from the, if you will, the bush coalition, the reagan coalition, to give yourselves that majority and barack obama, for example, take the white vote got more white voters than kerry or gore. these are the folks coming out and saying, you're not going to jam this down our throats. lose those folks and lose your blue dogs. >> they have not done a good job of communing what the stakes are. right now they don't see it as a choice between profit and health care that is more affordable to them. they see this as government control and that's something the white house has got to fix, i think, if they're going to get this through. but in any case, thank you both very much. we appreciate it. >> all right. where does the white house

stand now on the public option? it's a little bit murky at the briefing today. what about the government report that says the backup plan or co-ops will not work? we'll talk about all of that one hour from now with white house deputy spokesman bill burton, the questions will be very pointed and very clear. and monica, i have a feeling that, they're not -- i don't think bill's going to get through this interview. there's no distinction between the president saying something must be in a bill and saying he prefers something in a bill. he won't get away with that with us. >> and david, you're talking about whether people understand what this means for insurance companies and profits, rachel maddow pointed out, even though the dow was down, four of them were health care related. so some folks know exactly what yesterday's news potentially meant. >> indeed. up next, new terrorist attacks targeted u.s. troops in the run-up to the afghan elections. a live interview with the main challenger to afghan president karzai. also the second amendment

versus public safety. you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, so how come you can bring guns to a political rally especially one with the president? plus, sarah palin versus barack obama in 2012, is it a dream match-up for republicans? or a nightmare? the results of a new poll coming up here on the big picture. ery . fancy feast introduces an entirely new way to celebrate any moment. fancy feast appetizers. simple high quality ingredients like wild alaskan salmon, white meat chicken, or seabass and shrimp in a delicate broth, prepared without by-products or fillers. new fancy feast appetizers. celebrate the moment. you weren't always my favorite day. with all the pet hair in the air, i'd spend class preoccupied, bothered by itchy eyes. but now i have new zyrtec® itchy eye drops.

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in today's need to know, a final resting place for michael jackson. >> the singer will be laid to rest at forest lawn cemetery in glendale, california one week from saturday, august 29th, which would have been jackson's 51st birthday. there will be a private ceremony limited to family and friends. meantime, jackson's personal

physician who is a focus of a manslaughter investigation has issued his first public statement since jackson's death on june 25th. and we just got this video in, dr. conrad murray posting a video on youtube thanking his supporters. take a look. >> please, don't worry, as long as i keep god in my heart and you in my life, i will be fine. i have done all i could do. i told the truth, and i have faith the truth will prevail. god bless you. and thank you. >> so interesting to see that. we haven't heard him speak before. meanwhile, hurricane bill is gaining strength in the atlantic. the first hurricane in the atlantic season is expected to go up to a category three. it's impacting winds, and it is expected to get stronger the next couple of days. forecasters sers say it's likel come close to bermuda in the

next week. and a very happy ending to an apparent kidnapping in phoenix. outside a police station, officers handed two young children over to their relieved aunts as their anxious mother waits inside. police say the 2-year-old boy and his 11-month-old sister were abducted hours earlier when four gunmen burst into their home, demanding money. police say the children had been dropped off at a home in phoenix where they were then found unharmed. david, it's interesting, phoenix has earned this reputation, right now considered america's kidnapping capital. a lot of that has to do with kidnappings related to drug smuggling. police haven't said that at all. it's still under investigation. i was surprised to say looking up at the story that kidnapping's not uncommon in that area. >> what a reputation to have, as well. monica, later in the show, a woman who is really, really, really glad her brakes work on her car. >> we'll have the story behind this photo coming up in, where else?

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a new wave of violence has rolled across afghanistan two days before the country's presidential elections. >> targeted a nato convoy in a suicide attack. the bomber used a car to strike the convoy near a british military base in kabul. the attack killed at least eight people and wounded more than 50. two american soldiers were killed in a separate blast earlier. u.s., nato, and afghan security forces are on high alert ahead of thursday. the taliban denounced the election and warned people to stay away from the polls. meanwhile senator john mccain is in afghanistan with a congressional delegation for a two-day visit. saying he's aware they're trying to disrupt the election but the vote is critical to the country's evolution as a democracy. >> it seems to me the only real organization -- the only

organization in afghanistan that wants to have an election disrupted is the taliban. i think there's been united states encouragement and material support to make sure as many people in afghanistan are able to vote. >> nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard joins us live. it's obviously tense and fragile. what kind of chilling effect could this violence and the threats from the taliban have on elections this week? >> reporter: actually, the mood here in kabul is not that tense or chilling. if you walk around the streets, many people are out, markets are open, there are not that many check points on the street. there were two attacks in kabul today, one a rocket attack on the compound of president hamid karzai, no casualties there. and then this suicide car bombing attack on the nato

convoy. it was contained fairly quickly. there was a large crowd that gathered according to afghan officials. there were at least seven people killed, nato says, at least one of its soldiers was killed. after that, things pretty much returned to normal. there is not a great expectation that here in kabul, so far, the violence is going to disrupt or stop the votes. the situation could, however, be quite different in the south. that is where there is an active war zone for the last several weeks. u.s. marines have been on an offensive. that area remains much more unstable. >> richard, you had a very moving piece about the plight of women in afghanistan, and they spoke of their high hopes that this election would be a turning point. do those hopes remain high then in the face of all of the violence? >> reporter: they are mixed. because there are -- there's a high number of women who are running for office, more than 300 women are running for local offices or and at least two are

running to be -- for the presidential office, both election are happening simultaneously on thursday. but at the same time, women in this election process, in this campaign process have suffered a major setback. president karzai quietly in order to gain political favor passed one of the most repressive laws against women since the taliban were overthrown for power eight years ago. this law applies to shiites, the shiite minority in this country and says that husbands have the right to starve their wives if they refuse sex. so that's something that many women here saw as an abomination that the president was able to compromise their rights to win political favor. at the same time, you have many women running for office and then their rights are being traded for other politicians to gain ground. it's a very mixed picture. >> richard, as you've been reporting, there were a large number of u.s. troop casualties last month, a large number just

at the beginning here of august. is that really coinciding with the election? or is that just separate and just reflecting more engagement between u.s. troops and the taliban? >> reporter: i think it's reflecting more engagement. you have more troops pushing into more dangerous areas and that adds up to more casualties. and the chief commander on the ground here general mcchrystal says it will likely continue as u.s. troops push off bases, head deeper into the south where british troops had been stationed previously but not engaged in this kind of offensive operation that the u.s. marines are now taking to the taliban. >> richard engel, be safe. thanks as always, richard. you know, monica, it's so intriguing, the elections around the world are always interesting, but when you have the threat of violence disrupting it and so many crucial things that are essentially relying on this election going through, clearly and cleanly, it's an amazing story to be watching the next

couple of days. >> it is. i think the one bit of good news, richard said, it sounded like they were able to keep things moving despite the violence today. coming up, constitutional right or tool of intimidation? whether there's any place for a gun at a political rally. also, scientists now claiming they can fake dna evidence. what it means for the criminal courts and our national obsession with csi. i'm racing cross country in this small sidecar, but i've still got room for the internet. with my new netbook from at&t. with its built-in 3g network, it's fast and small, so it goes places other laptops can't. i'm bill kurtis, and wherever i go, i've got plenty of room for the internet. and the nation's fastest 3g network. gun it, mick.

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mr. evans? this is janice from onstar. i have received an automatic signal you've been in a front-end crash. do you need help? yeah. i'll contact emergency services and stay with you. you okay? yeah. onstar. standard for one year on 14 chevy models. your cnbc market wrap. right now the dow is trading up about 83 points, the s&p 500 is up nearly ten points, and the nasdaq is up about 25 points. new housing starts and

permits fell below expectations last month. the commerce department says housing starts fell 1% to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 581,000 units. cash for clunkers is giving general motors a boost. the program is prompting the automaker to increase production in several factories. officials say gm will add an extra day of work at the plant and increase hours at the factory in michigan. and home depot's earnings fell 7% beating analysts' expectations, cost cutting helped offset weak sales. the company also raised its earnings forecast for the year. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to msnbc. welcome back, i'm david shuster, live in washington. >> and live in new york. >> monica, in today's close up, scientists prove that dna evidence can be fake. believe it or not the "new york times" reporting that scientists in israel were able

to fabricate dna in samples, also able to create dna samples to match dna profiles in a law enforcement data base. the lead author of a paper on all of this says you can just engineer a crime scene and any biology undergraduate could perform this. all of this, of course, raising serious questions about the reliability or the future reliability of dna evidence. joining us now from pittsburgh, the renowned forensic pathologist, attorney, and medical legal consultant. doctor, great to see you. is there any concern given how easy they're making this sound, is there any concern this is already happening? >> well, there certainly is concern. i don't believe there's going to be undertaken by anybody with just a simple undergraduate degree in biology. but it's very frightening, and what is incredibly ironic is the national academy of sciences report in february of this year, which came out highly critical of forensic science laboratories and various testing techniques

said that the only one that was a standard was nuclear dna and now here we have this paper out of israel which shows that you can simulate a fake dna. what you do is you take a little bit of saliva or blood on a straw or drinking cup and you can amplify it and then you submit it and you can have someone else's dna. what they did was, they took a specimen of blood, removed the red blood cells, which do not have dna, you've got to have a nucleus, and they put in the cells from a man into this specimen, submitted it to a top forensic science laboratory in the united states and they got back the dna for that man when, in fact, it was the woman's blood. so they have proven that you can do this. >> that they can do it. >> as you said, monica, they have now also done something

else. they've shown take a snip-it from major profiles and you have a library index and you pick and choose if they have a dna profile of you and me somewhere over there, they can put these together and put together our profile and have us be at the scene of a murder. pretty frightening. >> what you're saying, still sounding rather complex to me. one researcher saying he didn't think the average criminal would be able to do something like this, but for how long? >> i agree, not the average criminal. i'm not worried about the average criminal. the average criminal we find. but how about the extremely smart criminal? and this now presents a whole new ball game. and furthermore, think of the impact on forensic scientists and their laboratories because the u.s. supreme court just about two months ago came out with the decision 5-4 which permits defense attorneys to call in the laboratory

technolo technologists to verify and establish the validity of their test results, and now with dna, which has not been challenged in recent times, they're going to get into this. you can be sure every defense attorney in america will be apprised of this and will raise a whole new ball game for all kinds of cases which rest upon dna. >> and doctor, whether it's five years down the road or ten years down the road, this is obviously a potential problem, shouldn't there be technology that suggests there's a fake positive? >> yes, and there is. david, that's a good point. he also points out that his laboratory in israel has established the techniques to differentiate between fake and real. what they look is to see whether there's a component. because the real dna requires this process and the fake ones the simulated ones do not have that compound. the very same scientists have shown there is a way to

differentiate between them and now all dna labs, i predict are going to have to implement that additional safeguard into their testing procedures. >> doctor, doctor -- just quick yes or no, did you ever think you'd see this in your lifetime? >> no. i thought dna was the gold standard and we could go to sleep on it. >> all right. great to have your expertise on this. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. david, i wondered because certainly as a laymen i never thought we'd beat dna as a gold standard and here you have it and even the doctor was surprised. >> and science is so amazing, monica. in the big picture, gun-toting americans at health care town halls. are they simply exercising their second amendment rights? or are they inciting anger, suggesting violence, even promoting intimidation? it began with one man in new hampshire who showed up with a pistol strapped to his leg. but monday in phoenix, roughly a dozen people carrying guns. among them, a guy with a

military-style assault rifle outside the hall where prom was delivering a speech to veterans. some conservative lawmakers in congress insist, however, it's not a problem. watch. >> if they've got a permit to carry, then absolutely they can show that and prove they have their rights -- i have no fear of it and i've had already five town hall meetings, i have six more planned, i don't plan on wearing a bullet proof vest. >> in the bigger picture, we've heard what gun owners are saying about bringing their weapons to the gathering, but it's the impression left on everyone else. people showing up without a weapon, seeing one like this can be intimidating, especially when the weapon belongs not to the secret service or a police officer, but to a demonstrator who may have a different point of view than yours. and then there's the basic security issue for the security service. joining us now via skype the chairman of we the people foundation. let's start with a basic premise. we all agree that people have a right to do this. here's my question for you.

most gun owners i know don't bring a gun some place, don't keep it stashed in their home unless they believe they may have a need to use it. do you know of anybody who believes they may have a need to use their gun at a political rally? >> no, i don't. and i don't think that's why they're bringing or wearing their handguns or their rifles to these rallies. i think they're sending a message. the message, i can't speak for them, i wasn't there, i don't know who these people are, but i'm quite familiar with the freedom movement in america and there are many, many people who are very upset with these violations of the constitution that have been increasing in frequency and severity for decades across administrations and across political parties. and many of these folks, i believe see this current issue health care as yet one more violation of the constitution. >> and aren't they being

opportunists then? it would be the same, for example, suppose that your group was having some sort of rally and a group of protestors showed up talking about women's rights and abortion rights. it doesn't seem like one issue has anything to do with the other. likewise, doesn't seem like a lot of americans that showing up with a gun at a rally over health care that that has anything to do with it. >> no. it doesn't seem like one issue has anything to do with another, but they do. we're talking about the constitution here. and folks, i mean the perennial, every year there are people who are advancing and suggesting more gun -- federal gun control logs. this is upsetting to folks. but in and of itself, it's not, i don't believe, it's why they're wearing these guns to these political event. what they're communicating, i believe, is that there are numerous violations of the constitution, whether it's the war powers clauses, whether it's the money clauses, whether it's the privacy clauses, the tax

clauses, even the faithfully execute clause. these are violations of the constitution, they're increasing in severity and frequency and these folks are -- they are probably leading knowing the media would be at these events, they need some sort of attention-getter. and they've gotten it. >> well, they've certainly gotten it, robert, but can you understand that people might look at this and say how do you weigh the right to bear arms versus the right to protect the president? >> well, obviously you have a right to protect the president and the president, i'm sure is going to control the secret service is going to protect him by requiring people to pass through magnatomters and so forth. but at a political rally where people choose to exercise their right and free speech, this is an expression. they are expressing their concern that there are growing

numbers of violations of the constitution and in their minds and i tend to agree with them. but in their minds, they're saying, there's absolutely no authority in the constitution for the government to provide health care. and so why are they -- why are they doing that? to them it's another violation of the constitution. and another example of the trashing of the constitution and they're trying to send a message. enough already. >> robert schults from the we the people foundation, robert, we appreciate you coming on and joining us with that view. and monica, i have to say, if somebody's really upset with the constitution, why not bring a copy of the constitution and wave it around one of these rallies? it still seems awfully intimidating for someone to show up with a loaded assault weapon at a political rally. >> does seem like a diversion. let's move on, shall we, david? >> yeah. gone but not forgotten. >> what a new poll says about sarah palin, the republican

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talk to your doctor about prescription treatment options. and make this time, your time. sarah palin may no longer be the governor of alaska, but she's done an aggressive job to stay in the public's radar from tweets and e-mails to dinner at a high-end restaurant in new york. palin is now the butt of a joke in a new movie starring hugh grant and sarah jessica parker. >> i hope you'll be real comfortable here with us. >> oh my god, it's sarah palin. >> in today's making their case, it's time for another installment of the palin chronicles. after resigning as governor of alaska with the full year and a half left in her first term, speculation continues to grow, monica, about palin's political aspirations. >> that's right, and as you say, she's been out there, she's been

tweeting and firing off e-mails about obama death panels. if she ran for president, how would she fair? well according to the latest merits poll, in a statistical tie with mitt romney, mike huckabee, and governor tim pawlenty of minnesota. but assuming she won that, up against president obama things get a bit more difficult. 56% of registered voters say they would vote for the president if the election were today while 33% said they'd pick palin. here to make their case are washington correspondent and phillip kline, washington correspondent for "the american spectator." what do you make of the poll? and how do you think palin would do in a primary? could she win? >> i think they track to their approval rating in the general public. the president is about 50% and sarah palin's at 39%. you're seeing undecided folks split for the president. in a head to head match-up. more importantly, i think people

are looking for leadership that is reasoned, that is expert. and i think sarah palin fundamentally is not a policy expert. that's something that came out over the course of the 2008 campaign. so things become very clear, she's tried to establish herself as somebody who is a bit of an expert on energy up in alaska, but as we know, i think she'd be hard pressed to name a greenhouse gas. so finding some place where she can stake out territories to even think about challenging a president in 2012. >> phillip, that same poll asked if palin's resigning early would help or hurt her political aspirations. and 61% said it was a bad move, 15% said it would help her. what do you think about the resignation? >> i think it was a bad move if she has political aspirations. if she wanted to be out of politics, then it makes sense from a personal perspective. the reason why is she has a very core group of passionate supporters. however, if she wants to win as a national candidate, she has to convince skeptics she's

qualified enough to do the job. and so leaving her position as governor deprived her as an opportunity to show -- to build up more qualifications. >> but doesn't she also need to establish she has the grasp, the basic facts? she was the one all over the board on these death panels and there was no such thing as a death panel in the bill. does she need to acknowledge reality if she wants to be on the national political stage? >> i think this thing is the big reason why she's remained sort of a prominent role is that liberals are obsessed with sarah palin and obsessed with making a big deal out of here. let's face it. this is a woman who is now no longer an office holder, a private citizen tweeting and posting some stuff on a facebook page. and suddenly the left just goes completely bonkers of it and we're sort of -- >> it's a train wreck. it's a train wreck and somebody's openly talking and leaving open the option of a presidential campaign and at least the large segment of our society believes that sarah palin does not have a grasp of

basic facts and the truth. >> yeah, but -- we're several years out from an election. the presidential election is over, she's no longer governor. so i just think that this obsession with sarah palin borders on the absurd when you're focusing on what she tweeted today. it's kind of absurd. >> phillip makes an interesting point the fact that she is a private citizen now. does she have some sort of free pass in terms of half hey, look, she gets it wrong, she gets it wrong. she's not a governor anymore and not running right now. >> yeah, i don't think she gets a free pass on this one at all. and again, liberals are certainly not obsessed with sarah palin, she's been thrust upon the whole country by a bunch of conservative elites from the east coast. newt gingrich invited her to pick up an apartment in washington or new england, so she can be at home among the class she derives so much. she's going to have to win a republican primary and i think

that will be tough for her because she doesn't have the grass roots support. out there tweeting in the dark. and i think she'll have a hard time despite what your poll says matching up against folks like mi mike huckabee. she's still in alaska, doing the same act that got her to a state -- to the head of political leadership in a very small state but is not enough to carry her past president barack obama. we should remember what he said when he heard she was tapped as the a vice presidential running mate. he said look, it took me four months to get my footing as a national candidate, she'll never be ready in time, and i think the way things are going by 2012, she might never be ready. >> thank you both, great to talk to you. >> great. monica, i think one could argue that sarah palin will never be ready. i mean, i think there's just a lot of people out there who are convinced she just doesn't have what it takes, doesn't have the intellectual capacity, maybe great political skills and a lot

of charisma, but at this stage in the serious times we live in, it takes a lot more. >> but she's not going away any time soon. we know that. >> it's true, that's true. and it's to her benefit to stay out there and to the benefit of levy johnston to ride it as much as he can. nbc foreign correspondent richard engel has the interview with the man who wants to be president of afghanistan. also ahead, why some college football stadiums may be banning facebook, twitter, and youtube. does it make any sense? can they really do that? >> no, they can't. they cannot do that. plus, stephen colbert gets a congressman to funnel a beer. >> can they do that? >> some of us did. you're watching the big picture on msnbc. he ran off with his secretary! she's 23 years old! - oh, come on. - enough! you get half and you get half. ( chirp ) team three, boathouse? ( chirp ) oh yeah-- his and hers. - ( crowd gasping ) - ( chirp ) van gogh?

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in just two days afghans will go to the polls to vote in

the country's presidential election. >> monica, there are three dozen candidates in the race, but president hamid karzai faces his biggest challenge from abdullah abdullah. richard is joined by dr. abdullah. richard, take it away. >> reporter: thank you very much. it's a pleasure to have you here. has now become a two-candidate race between you and president karzai. let me start off by asking you about the violence. there was another attack today. do you think this kind of taliban violence is going to keep people from voting on thursday? >> fortunately, it didn't keep people away from campaigning or during the campaign, but, again, unfonl, this unfortunately, this is a fact of life now. i think the level of enthusiasm i see in the population, they will take that risk. >> do you think it will be a fair election?

there's been so many allegations of fraudulent voter cards that you can buy on -- >> no, i think the issue is that -- how unfair it is, how much. it's already the process, the campaign itself. it wasn't on a level playing field. far from it. >> you think president karzai was unfairly campaigning? >> of course. he has used state resources. if you just take the air time in the state-run television, it was 90% for him, 1% for me. just take that one example. the same applies to the rest of it. so the process has been unfair right from the beginning, and we knew it. and we didn't expect president karzai in perform better in that sense because he has stepped on the constitution and violated the constitution, so how can one expect had him to abide by the

clear electoral law. >> reporter: if you're acknowledging there will be some fraud on election day -- >> there will be. >> reporter: -- how does the world community know if these are accurate elections? how can we know if these are fair? >> i think there are indications of such things because the voter registration process in itself has been fraudulent in very sort of -- process i should say. as a result of that, there are a lot of duplicated cards and the number of people who are registered in some parts of the country is equal to the population you can imagine. and based on that, there are possibilities of fraud, but how big that is, it will be known to the public, it will be known to the international community. >> reporter: president car zoka position of u.s. troops and cooperation with the military effort in this country is well-known. if you were to become president, would that change? what is your position vis-a-vis

the troops and the fighting in the war which wompeople in the united states think cannot be won, what is your position? >> i think it will be a big change. mine will be a genuine partnership, a sincere partnership, a serious one, and on a long-term basis. in president karzai at times he puts all the blame on the americans. >> reporter: blaming them for civilian casualties. >> not just the issue of blaming civilian casualties. today he's saying to the public, to those who go and meet him like the political leaders, that the americans are plotting against me, let's unite. so i think it's not partnership. it's something that -- you find a word for it. >> reporter: many have said it will be a very, very close race and it, in fact, could go to a runoff. the two candidates now we've heard from one of then tonight, thank you very much for joining us. monica, david, back to you. >> richard engel in kabul.

richard, thank you so much. great working getting the interview and so intriguing to hear mr. abdullah talk about the differences that he would have with u.s. troops as opposed to president karzai. fascinating. it should be an intriguing election with a lot riding on it. coming up, is president barack obama backing down on health care? we will talk about the politics of the public option is deputy press secretary bill burton. plus new reaction to jenny sanford's big interview about her cheating husband, the governor. you're watching "the big picture" on msnbc. ♪ 'cause now i'm driving off the lot in a used sub-compact. ♪ ♪ f-r-e-e, that spells free credit report dot com, baby. ♪ ♪ saw their ads on my tv ♪ thought about going but was too lazy ♪ ♪ now instead of looking fly and rollin' phat ♪ ♪ my legs are sticking to the vinyl ♪ ♪ and my posse's getting laughed at. ♪ ♪ f-r-e-e, that spells free- credit report dot com, baby. ♪

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this hour on "the big picture," the oabama administration says it's not caving even as senate democrats are given the green light to consider a health insurance co-op instead of the public option. >> the co-op idea is one that's being closely examined by the one committee that has not yet passed legislation. >> but a nonpartisan government

report says co-ops will not work. so now what? we'll speak with bill burton. they're back. both the clintons at the white house today. the secretary of state meeting with the president to talk about africa and the middle east and at this hour bill clinton talking north korea and the return of those american journalists. later, mark sanford returns to work at the governor's office in south carolina, but the first lady is reminding everybody of this. >> i have been unfaithful to my wife. >> jenny sanford, the wronged wife, continues to speak out. plus, that sinking feeling in a cardboard boat race. and the other things we thought you should know. colbert, beer guzzling. >> like this. that's what guys do. >> you keep on thinking that. >> thank you for sitting down with me. >> all that and more this hour on msnbc. we will get to that. good afterno